Advisement: Slightly shortened class today
1. Warming up with a quick overview of the journal rubric
2. Delving into Thomas' narrative
- Reading pages 108-111 and 132-136 together:
- (1) Pick out three lines that captures something important about the grandmother and grandfather's relationship
- (2) Ask a question and/or make an inference about these lines.
- (3) Extra challenge: What won't they say to each other?
- (4) Extra extra challenge: What do they mean by "Something" and "Nothing"? Why do they need "Something spaces" and "Nothing spaces"?
2. Enjoying Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close Discussion #2: Pages 86-141
3. Wrapping up with takeaways/reflections
HW:
1. Read pages 142-173 in Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close; spend 30 minutes this week with your journal.
If you miss a Fishbowl or Socratic, you must make it up. Fishbowl: Read over the syllabus and blog comments, then add an extended comment to the class blog. Socratic: Read over the syllabus and the class notes, then add an extended comment to the class blog.
If you miss a Fishbowl or Socratic, you must make it up. Fishbowl: Read over the syllabus and blog comments, then add an extended comment to the class blog. Socratic: Read over the syllabus and the class notes, then add an extended comment to the class blog.
2. will begin our READING JOURNAL CONFERENCES in class tomorrow (Wednesday). Click HERE for the rubric.
3. THIS FRIDAY IS THE END OF 6 WEEKS. All make-up work from the first 6 weeks must be submitted by this date. After Friday, any grade in IC will remain as is.
On page 108 what do you think Thomas means by, "I change the sheets every morning to wash away my writing,"?
ReplyDeletemaybe the ink ran onto the sheets.
DeleteI feel that Thomas does not want to remember what he writes. I see a pattern with Thomas in the fact that he never wants to look back at anything, therefore he will not look back at what he writes
DeleteMaybe this is what he means by, "We never sleep in the same bed twice." Maybe they get new sheets everyday so they are technically sleeping in a different bed every night. But why do they feel the need to?
DeleteIs Thomas the grandfather dead or will he come back into the story or even appear in oscars narrative?
ReplyDeleteI feel like he might pop back into there lives because he misses the grandmother, and since Oskar talks with his grandmother a lot if Thomas pops up again he will probably find out.
DeleteIf the theory that this whole book is Oskar's journal, my prediction is that the grandfather is dead. I think this because usually when someone dies, you want to find some way to remember them. This might be Oskar's way of applying his grandfather's words to his life and remembering him.
DeleteI would guess he's still alive, he can't be older than about 60, and the book does not indicate that he is physically unhealthy.
DeleteMaybe the grandfather has something to do with the renter because the grandmother wouldn't just let some random old man live with her, and I don't think that Oskar's mom would either
DeleteThe Grandma describes something burning maybe its the apartment. I think he may have died in that fire and then the grandma kept all the things she could find.
DeleteSpeaking of the renter, who do you think he is? Why does the grandma try to keep him hidden. It was mentioned earlier that it could be Oskar's grandfather but why would his grandma keep him hidden?
DeleteOn page 108 it says "She wanted to talk like she was born here, like she never came from anywhere else" Why would she want to seem like she was born in the US?
ReplyDeleteI believe she wanted to seem like she was from the US so she could forget her past.
DeleteAlso she probably didn't want to feel out of place, because 1963 was a time of discrimination so people from other countries weren't very welcome in the US so she probably wanted to seem like any other US citizen.
Delete"The Nothing vase cast a Something shadow, like the memory of someone you've lost." How does this depressing statement relate to the theme of the book?
ReplyDeleteI started coming twice a week and staying for several hours, when it was time to go home I didn’t want to leave, and when i wasn’t here, I wanted to be here, now I come every morning before we open the store, and every evening after dinner, so what is it, am I hoping to see someone I know get off one of the planes, am I waiting for a relative who never will come, do I expect Anna? From this I can infer that Thomas cannot leave the memory of his lost true love in the bombing, and no matter how many happy people he sees reunited he will never get that feeling of relief Pg. 109
ReplyDeleteOn pages 109 to 110 Oskar's grandfather said, "Only a few months into our marriage, we started marking off areas in the apartment as "nothing places." Do they need space from each other, or space to be alone?
ReplyDeleteI think space to be alone, because of how depressed they were they needed some place to go when they wanted to be alone in their thoughts.
DeleteOn page 108, Thomas says: "So many rules, sometimes I can't remember what's a rule and what isn't..." Why do you think they have so many rules in their relationship?
ReplyDeleteI think that they have so many rules because they are both healing at their own rate. Or do you think they need those nothing spaces to grief for themselves?
DeleteBecause they don't know how to deal with the past. Neither of them can move on from what happened. So they make rules thinking that it will keep the subject from coming up. Plus they just want each other's companionship not a real relationship with each other.
DeleteOn page 111, Thomas says "She [Grandma] wanted to talk like she was born here, like she never came from anywhere else." But, Thomas couldn't be more stuck in the past. So, why does grandma miss Thomas so much if they were entirely different people?
ReplyDeleteJust the original connection that she felt for him might still be present. She was very persistent to marry him because she really loved him in the beginning of the relationship, then they lost that connection over time most likely because of all the rules they started making.
DeleteOn the bottom of page 106 Oskar states, "Mom must have stopped to wash her face ten times."This occurred while they were on their way to Thomas's (Dad) storage facility. Why do you think she stopped so much? To wash away pain? Or feelings?
ReplyDeleteWhy do they pretend that they actually love each other when they make these "nothing" places to distance themselves.
ReplyDeleteStarting on 108they describe all these rules, one of the rules is don't ask how there day was. Why did they have rules like this?
ReplyDeleteI think because if they had a bad day the other one wouldn't want to hear about it because earlier they said they don't listen to sad songs and if their day was sad they wouldn't wanna hear about it.
DeleteI think that there are rules because it sounds like there relationship doesn't want to be a sad one, more positive. Like not listening to sad music and not bringing up the past show that why focus on the past and all the bad when we have such a great life ahead of us, lets enjoy what we can of the UPCOMING opportunities. I think with to many relationships in all forms we look at our past way to much. Yes we can't forget what has happened to us in the past but also we can't let it effect what we want to accomplish in the future.
DeleteWhy is Thomas Sr writing to Thomas Jr.
ReplyDeleteI think that he is writing to Thomas Jr because he doesn't know that Thomas Jr is so close with his mom.
DeleteMost likely because he wants to explain himself for leaving Grandma. He states on page 135 "I'm telling you all of this because I'll never be your father and, you will always be my child. I want you know, at least, that it's not out of selfishness that I am leaving, how can I explain that?" He just want Thomas Jr. to have some closure.
DeleteIs it pocible the some of the things that they do is just habit and not symbolism?
ReplyDeleteWhat would you mean by habit because those don't exactly seem like normal habits such as biting your finger nails or something like that.
DeleteOn page 90, when referring to the 9th floor, Oskar says "It isn't safe" and believes something might happen to him when he's up there. Does this relate to what happened to his dad in 9/11, and if so, how?
ReplyDeleteI think to some extent, but I also think it has to do with the Falling Man and how when you are that high up and you get trapped one of the ways out is to jump.
DeleteIt may not be relevant to the plot, but might reveal something about Oskar's personality; Is Oskar one of those confident little kids that isn't scared to talk to girls and say how he feels? The way he speaks to Abby would suggest he is very outgoing but other parts of his personality would say he is a little shy sometimes. Which is it?
ReplyDeleteI think he is so determined to find the lock that he will talk to anyone as long as he feels it can help him on his quest.
DeleteIt seems as though he either trusts a person, or doesn't trust them. He must make this decision quickly, because he is outgoing to people he trusts, and shy towards people he doesn't trust.
DeleteThis is very interesting to me because knowing a person very similar to Oskar, my friend is very outspoken about somethings but kinda holds back on certain topics. To answer your question though I believe that you can be both i mean aren't we all confident with certain topics but not others?
DeleteThoughts on what Gynne and Ian are discussing: In the hero's journey, Stan might be the "guardian of the threshold." He watches over the boundary that Oskar passes over from a safe to a potentially unsafe space.
ReplyDeleteOskar met Abby while on his quest to discover "Black." He thought Abby was one of the most beautiful women he had ever met. Could that be Nicole, who Jonathan Safran Foer (author) dedicated the book to, with a note reading "my idea of beautiful"?
ReplyDeletePossibly, but I think Jonathon Safran Foer was just using that as a way to convery Oskar's personality more accurately. From what I've seen, 9 year old boys will think almost anyone is beautiful.
DeleteOn page 108 that we just read in class, the quote, "Your mother and I never talk about the past, that's a rule." This is one of many rules that the couple has. Why do you think these rules are set in their relationship?
ReplyDeleteBecause they were entirely different people. Thomas was stuck in the past. He missed Anna and Dresden as it was. But, Grandma couldn't be more progressive. She wants to learn the English language and pretend she had never been anywhere else.
DeleteMaybe its to distance themselves from each other because they're scared of having an actual deep connection.
DeleteThese rules are set in their relationship because they are still coping with things in their past. They think by having these rules it will keep these memories from coming up again.
DeleteI like that thought, Logan. Both of them know that they aren't truly in love with each other so distancing themselves might help them not have a relationship consisting of untrue love.
DeleteOn page 107, Oskar says, "I could tell that Mom was dreaming, but i didn't want to know what she was dreaming about, because I had enough of my own nightmares, and if she had been dreaming something happy, I would have been angry at her for dreaming something happy". DO you think that Oskar is jealous of his mom for being able to move on? I think Oskar is angry at himself for not being able to move on. He doesn't want any more nightmares, he wants happy dreams.
ReplyDeleteCan you really be mad at someone or jealous that you grieve differently and at different rate of time than other people?
DeleteI don't believe that Oskar is jealous. With every adventure he goes on, Oskar is trying to connect with his dad. If he was trying to move on then he wouldn't be on this adventure of his. He is angry at his mom for moving on too quickly.
DeleteI don't thinks he's jealous I just think that hes upset at her because she should be as upset about his death as he is
DeleteOn page 136 Thomas writes "I want to buy a ticket to Dresden" Do you think that will help him heal or do you think it will just make things worse for him and his healing process?
ReplyDeleteIt is a similar process to what Oskar is going through, they are both revisiting painful memories in order to find closure. I don't think it will speed up their healing, but it won't make it worse.
DeleteI think it might help him. I've seen many cases where people go back to somewhere they had a bad experience and it helps them answer questions they had or help get the experience out of there head.
DeleteIt is a similar process to what Oskar is going through, they are both revisiting painful memories in order to find closure. I don't think it will speed up their healing, but it won't make it worse.
DeleteOn pages 108 to 110 Thomas talks about the rules they have to forget Dresden. I believe it will help him. Thomas cold have realized doing nothing with his wife is hurting him more than going back.
DeleteThink of it this way. Do you think it would help someone to go back to ground zero after what happened with 9/11. We all take things in different ways so its hard to tell what type of person Thomas would be.
DeleteOn page 91, Oskar doesn't believe that the lady doesn't know Thomas Schell. Why?
ReplyDeleteWhen he showed her the key he noticed that she reacted to it slightly. So I think that she is just lying about something to maybe protect her self from something.
DeleteWhat is she hiding from a kid that she never met, about his dad that she never met?
DeleteDid Oskars grandma ever give Thomas Jr. The letters that his dad wrote.
ReplyDeleteHow did Oskar get a hold of the letters
ReplyDeleteI think his grandma gave them to him or we know that Oskar is a nosey kid so he might have found them somewhere.
DeleteA doorknob keeps appearing throughout the book quite a bit, it's on page 115 and 134, one picture does not have a key and one does. Could this be the lock Oskar is looking for or do you think it has to do with something else?
ReplyDeleteI also noticed that the doorknob has appeared out of context throughout the book. I think that this lock could be the one Oskar is looking for
DeleteI believe it just symbolizes Oskar going around trying the key in multiple locks.
DeleteThat is very possible. They also mention, " a key, a pen, a pocket watch" on page 110 so this could also be a reference to the same sort of key theme going with Oskar.
DeleteI agree with Mya and Henry.
DeleteI don't think this is the key that Oskar is looking for, but you have helped me notice the symbolism between keys and the locks.
DeleteLocks: Symbolize moments in peoples lives they want to forget about and 'lock away.'
Keys: Symbolize moments in peoples lives that they want to relive and explore.
Does Oskar's mom try to hide that she really hasn't moved on because she feels that he will freak out if she says that she is not over him?
ReplyDeletePossibly, it might be the best way that she deals with the loss of her husband.
DeleteI believe that she has acctualy moved on and before all this happened she just kept a certain distance because she didn't want to feel in the same position as Oskar's grandmother when Thomas left her.
DeleteI agree with Mrs. Leclaire, and it is clear that Abby Black is taking her anger and pain out on the dust. We haven't seen a big wave of emotions from Oskar, which is strange because shouldn't he be feeling something over his dad? Is he holding in his emotions? If so, when will it all come out? If he doesn't have a ton of emotion inside, why?
ReplyDeleteCan Oskar really show his emotion or does he not know what he is feeling?
DeleteWhat are the differences in the grieving process from Oskar to his mom and then his grandmother?
ReplyDeleteI know that this isn't a book about 9/11 but it is doing a great job of describing the events and how we all make impeccable decisions after terrible events. After tragedy we can decide to hold onto people that we lose or we can drop them and move on.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but at the same time I believe that the key Oskar has actually means something more than him holding onto his father and his memories.
DeleteWhy did Thomas feel the need to hide himself when walking to Anna's house?
ReplyDeleteI think he's just afraid of the past and he's scared of moving on because he didn't really have any closure.
DeleteOskar's search seems pointless, but he doesn't realize it at this point. Will he give up if he goes through his entire list and never finds someone who knows about the key?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't exactly call it giving up, I would think based on his way that he does everything, that he would probably just think of a new way to execute the plan of going and finding this keys home.
DeleteHow close do you think that Oskar's mom and Oskar's dad were?
ReplyDeleteI don't think we ever really saw the relationship between them
DeleteI don't know if she really shows that she cares about anyone.
DeleteResponding to the inner circle: I wonder if the reason Foer never clarifies whether or not Oskar has autism is because EVERYBODY struggled with their emotions after 9/11 (and maybe before 9/11, too).
ReplyDeleteEither way, I don't think Foer needed to clarify. It allows the reader to make their own decision on whether or not Oskar has autism, which can be really beneficial.
DeleteThat is very possible because no matter who you were on that day, people were experiencing emotion constantly and even to this day people could be trying to deal with their experience that day.
DeleteLike what Riley Schell just said, I have doubts about anything being different about Oskar, he is capable of doing many things very independently. If he had a disorder one would think closer attention might be paid towards him to keep him from wandering around the city alone. He may have some obsessive compulsiveness but he seems to function the same as anyone else. What else might be different about Oskar to cause his occasional odd behavior?
ReplyDeleteAt the end of Thomas's Sr. chapter, he writes in his journal, "You're being crazy. You're going to catch a cold. You're going to catch a colder." Is he talking to Grandma?
ReplyDeleteOn Pages 109-110 Thomas writes: "Only a few months into our marriage, we started marking off areas in the apartment as 'Nothing Places,' in which one could be assured of complete privacy..." Why did they want privacy so bad that they created nothing places? Was it to avoid each other? To be alone? To cope with an embarrassing moment? And did both of them agree to having so many specific rules in their marriage?
ReplyDeleteOn page 96 when Oskar wrote "Then she started to cry tears. I thought, I'm the one who's supposed to be crying." Why do you think that Oskar was against Abby Black crying? Why did he say that he should be the one that's crying? Did he ever cry about his dad's death? Why does he think that he should be crying? Is it because he didn't cry earlier? Or perhaps because he's frustrated and disappointed at the situation he's in? Or is he frustrated with himself? Why was Oskar so sure that she was lying about knowing his dad?
I think that his mom isn't putting on a strong face for Oskar, she is just moving on differently. On page 35, Oskar says his mom and Ron have "Heavy-petted each other." What does this mean? I think it hints towards that his mom was having an affair, or maybe his mom and dad had relationship problems. Is this why she is seems happy "too soon?"
ReplyDelete"Our last night together, that the inevitable question arose..." What do you think the inevitable question was?
ReplyDeleteI'm finding that their is a metaphoric relationship between keys and locks in this book.
ReplyDeleteThe keys represent events characters want to learn more about.
And, locks depict memories that characters are trying to forget.
Thoughts on this?
YES!
DeleteWho do you think Oskar's mentor is if he was in the hero's journey.
ReplyDeleteHis dad.
DeleteI would have to say that his dad would be the most important mentor in the heros journey because there are so many loose ends that his dad wants him to find and to figure out and since he is doing that, he is sort of just his biggest mentor from all of this since he is teaching him so much by just letting him figure stuff out on his own and tie up all of these unanswered questions.
Delete"She said, I love you," I told her how I felt, this is how I told her: I held her hands out to her sides, I pointed her index fingers toward each other and slowly, very slowly, moved them in, the closer they got, the more slowly I moved them, and then, as they were about to touch, as they were only a dictionary page from touching, pressing on opposite sides of the word love, I stopped them, I stopped them and held them there. From this I can infer that in the beginning he ran into the relationship with Oskars mother by getting married the day after they reunited, and as time passed his fingers got closer, and closer but at the very end when he thought that he could love her he remembered his "burden," and could not bring himself to love her like Anna
ReplyDeleteIs Oskar's grandmother closer to Oskar or her husband?
ReplyDeleteOskar is very observant and logical. He is an atheist, but is he really an atheist in that he doesn't have a belief system? or is it just that he has no reason for religion?
ReplyDeleteToday I was very impressed how we had multiple opinions going on one question
ReplyDeleteOskar seems very determined to find answers to his questions, even if it requires him to do absurd things.
ReplyDeleteDoes Anna know what that key is for and if so why did she lie?
ReplyDeleteKeys symbolize things people want to discover
ReplyDeleteLocks symbolize things people want to forget
I feel like none our questions got answered
ReplyDeleteI took away that there is still a big debate about if Oskar has disabilities or not. There are clues hinting to both sides.
ReplyDeleteI'm still wondering who Thomas is talking to at the end of the reading. I feel like it is the grandmother but it could be anyone.
ReplyDeleteOne take away is that how was Oskar's life before his dad died?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Thomas feel the need to hide himself, and look down when he would walk to Anna's house to look for her.
ReplyDeleteOne take away that i found is that Oskar is not autistic, he is capable of handling himself, he is really smart in his own way and thinks so much differently
ReplyDeleteTakeaway: Oskar is in a quest with no happy ending. He will find what he's looking for, and it will hurt him, or he won't which will hurt him too.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Oskar still have hope on such an impossible journey?
ReplyDeleteI realized how I feel about Oskar's mental state, about how he probably isn't autistic, just has a unique personality. Also Andrew Darlings post about metaphorical keys and locks had me really thinking, a very good take on the key.
ReplyDeleteOne question I have is why does Oskar need to find the lock so bad?
ReplyDeleteNotes:
ReplyDeleteDads coffin- not sure how they died but they just wanted him to bury him
Significance of the tambourine- plays it to calm him
Why he feels his grandma doesn't like him- ignoring him cause her son died and he took that the wrong way
Key- trying to find where the key goes to
Door knobs- all of them are different in the book
People Oskar interviews- he over thinks there answers and thinks they are lying to him, how everyone was after 9/11 inviting and opening up and rare in New York
Thomas's unborn child- knows about his son but not sure if he knows about the family, might have left for that reason
how much long can oskar look for- going to figure it out
Oksar- knows a lot of weird facts, knows what he is talking about bc he goes into detail
renter- can possibly be oskar's grandpa
What scares oskar- things scare him that relate back to 9/11
heavy boots- his way of saying he was sad
relationship with grandma and mom- oskar spends and gives him more attention and love and he cares more about her. Mom becoming distant, grandma trying to help oskar feel better, and oskar ignores what is really going on.
Why oskar got mad over dad keeping things- didn't want to come to terms that he had to grow up and move away from his dad
A summary was given
ReplyDeleteHeavy boots about grandma's bad dreams and how oscar cares more for her than his mom:
She and oskar have a much more developed bond rather than that of his mom his grandmother also provides a link to his father
Does Thomas want to lose his word:
He doesn’t want to but the words began as reminders to what he had before and now they just relieve the pain of what he felt
Why is Abby Black sad:
Her home life isn’t positive and this reflect in the way in which she speaks with oskar.
Why does Thomas always ask for the time?:
So he can buy a ticket to Dresden
Oskar has lost count of his disappointments is this bad or good?:
It’s best to have low expectations in order for the positive to feel better, and this also allow for improvement>
What is the significance of the door knob seen throughout the book?:
Some of the images have keys while others don't and this can represent a progression and how Oskar becomes closer and closer to what Oscar wants. Or it could represent the Grandpa and what he has left behind. Or it could represent what was a something or nothing to what Thomas had in a marriage.
What made the Somethings and Nothing important:
Nothing is for them to forget and a form of escape for them, something is for them to have together and be in a space together.
Why is Oskar upset that his mother is happy?:
Oskar isn’t use to the fact that his father isn’t around, and now he has to adjust to what life is without his father. Unlike his mother who lived a life before them, where as Oskar only knew life with his father
What is Oskars goal?:
Closure seems to be his goal. This key is a reminder to what Oskar and his father had and doing a quest like this helps him remember what his father did for him. Yet what is the actual meaning of this key, is he hid it that was was it actually meant to be found, or could it have always just been a important kid. Yet Oskar could just be looking for closure in the form of the key because the last remaining thing is the calls?
Could there be a part of Oskar that believes his father is alive?
Who is the Renter?
Is this renter someone or simply a imaginary friend to the grandma. Could grandma be just some old lady looking for company outside of Oskar.
Is Oskar the writer of the whole book?
It feels like a journal of someone, because the books feels like a scrape book due to the lack of structure.
Why doe Oskar fear public transportation?:
I could link to post 9/11 mindset that instilled fear in mass public settings where one could find themselves in a dangerous situation.
Why does it matter that the bathtub is nothing but the bath water is something?:
The marriage is a compromise and this could correspond to that
What is the evitable question:
Maybe it’s that she's question
Does Thomas junior never meet his dad?
Probably not considering he's writing this to a child that isn’t even conceived yet, and does Thomas actually attempt to meet his father?
What will happen if Oskar doesn't find what he's looking for?
ReplyDeleteI think the satisfaction will still be there for him just because he still may find the answer for his fathers death
Why did the door man trust Oskar in what he was doing?
There could be some backround chemistry between him and Oskar that allowed him to trust Oskar. Since they both knew that Oskar was lying about being sick, the door man just let him go and I found that a little strange.
How does Oskar's pictures resemble his personality?
I think Oskar's personality is really difficult to capture since he has a large variety of different pictures with different meanings.
How long will it take for Oskar to find some answers? Does he care?
I think he will take around 3-4 months to find some answers. It's really hard to judge how long it's going to take since we don't really know anything yet. I also think Oskar is willing to look for however long it takes to find answers to his fathers death.
Was Oskar any different before his dad died?
I think he certainly was more different because his dad was one of his closest friends who he bonded with frequently but I always thought Oskar was a curious warm hearted kid.
In this book, images and Oskar’s grandfather’s camera are recurring motifs. What is Foer trying to say by using this motif? How do images capture emotion? What do they tell us about our lives and ourselves?
ReplyDeleteOn page 101, Oskar recounts hiding from his grandmother in the park one day during the week after 9/11 because, “I liked the way it felt to have someone look for me, to hear my name again and again…. Maybe I didn’t even like it, but I needed it right then.” He lets his grandmother get “incredibly panicky” and cry as she searches, and watches her walk back home, imagining how she “would have to tell [his mom] I had disappeared, and that because she wasn’t watching me closely enough, I was gone for ever and there would be n more Schells.” He finally reveals that he is okay once she is back at the apartment, and cracks up at the joke. Oskar shows incredible amounts of insensitivity here: he knows his grandmother has lost her family, then her husband, then her son and he knows she experiences guilt over letting him get hurt (on page 101, she says, “I became a monster” after an innocent accident leads to Oskar getting stitches). This “prank” must have been so painful for her, and Oskar should know that. He loves his grandmother, so why pull this horrible prank on her? Is it just childishly putting his emotional needs above hers? Trying to find some normalcy or humor during a terrible time by playing a prank? A lack of understanding of the amount of emotions his grandmother would feel during the prank? An attempt to make someone around him hurt like he is?
Thomas and the grandmother make an excessive number of rules in their relationship. Most of us don’t reach their level, but human relationships are often guided by sets of unspoken (or spoken) rules. What are some examples of common rules we follow in various types of relationships? What effects do these rules have on our relationships? Do they prevent conflict? Inhibit intimacy? Hinder growth and change?